What is Independent Baptist? (Part 5)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, very good. Thank you for being here. We are going to dive right back into our study. We are looking at the subject of on the broad topic of our church that is just trying to cover some practical matters regarding the church, specifically our church. And then what we're looking at now specifically is we're looking at the term independent Baptist. We've already covered Baptist. Now we're looking at the independent part of that. And so where we're at now, for those of you that are just joining us, I hate that you'll just be getting in on the middle of everything, but hopefully you'll be able to catch up a little bit. We're looking at the term independent as it relates to denominations. And most specifically where we are that essentially means the Southern Baptist Convention. So the question we're answering is this. Why are we not Southern Baptist? And again, I just want to make sure we cover the tone and the attitude and the spirit in the right way, because I believe that that's important. It's important to stand for truth and righteousness, but it is also important to stand for truth and righteousness in such a way that that is consistent with the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. And sometimes we know that that's not always the case. And so I want to make sure we cover that. So we've already discussed the Southern Baptist Convention. It is not a matter of we think that Southern Baptists are going to hell or that they're embracing some gross false doctrine necessarily. That's not what it about it at all. But we are looking at the practical matters related to this and we're going to see some scriptural things also today. The first thing we looked at is the history of the Southern Baptist Convention. We talked about the Philadelphia Baptist Association. Then we saw the downstream of that was the Triennial Convention. And then finally that turned delegates from the Triennial Convention actually started the Southern Baptist Convention over the issue, essentially the issue of slavery, because they did not like the direction of the Triennial Convention against slavery and owning of slaves. And so they started the Southern Baptist Convention. I came across an interesting quote though, by Charles Spurgeon. Get this. Now, this is Spurgeon now, completely different context. This is the 1840s, 50s, that era in England now, not in the United States. And here's what I don't have the quote verbatim, but this is the gist of the quote. Spurgeon said, I will have no fellowship or association with anyone who owns a slave. That's Charles Spurgeon in his context. In his era taking a personal stand of separation on a current issue of importance to him. And what's interesting with that is how that played into the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention. Of course, as. And I'm not saying, well, Southern Baptists, now, they want to have slavery. No, I'm not saying they have repudiated all of that now. So just to be clear, they have publicly repudiated that position. But this is the history. We should not blind ourselves to that. What is interesting, though, is that the Southern Baptist Convention was started originally essentially in association with Adoniram Judson and Luther Rice and a desire to cooperate on the subject of missions. And we've already seen that's a good thing. You know, giving the missions and supporting missionaries is a good thing. And so we always, our church included, as an individual, local church, has to be careful that what starts as good things does not become something that's not good. And that is always the case. Do you know why? Because we live in a world that has a current, and we are people with a nature that has a current and an inclination toward things that are not good. And so we have to be careful of this. But anyway, that's kind of the history. So what we looked at last week specifically was the history of the Southern Baptist Convention. And I want to. I want to turn now to the. Besides the history, and we covered a few things related to some of the issues related to the history and our church. And you're going to hear from Brother Vernon today. Brother Vernon is one of our deacons. He's been at our church since 1983, where he and his wife got saved and has been here a long time. Through the thick and thin. He was here. He and I think the only two people in our church. No, there's three people in our church now that. That were here when the church left the Southern Baptist convention in 1985. Three brother Vernon and his wife. So that's. I'll count that as one. Ms. Judy Pitt. And then Ms. Karen, which Ms. Karen is having an issue with her air conditioner leaking through her ceiling. Brother Devin, it's your fault. I told her to call you if she needed help. But those three folks in our church that are still here, and of course, there used to be a lot more. Many of them have passed on and things, but they saw it before. They know what happened during and what led up to that decision and then the fallout of this decision. And so Brother Vernon is going to give us a testimony on that of personal experience, because I want you to understand that what is on paper about these questions and how it is done in practice are often not the same. There's a difference, and I want to make sure we cover both of those. So let's pray. And if you want to go ahead and get one Timothy, chapter five, and Ephesians, chapter five, we'll be looking at those today. First Timothy, chapter five, and EpheSians, chapter five, first Timothy, chapter five, and EpHeSians, chapter five. All right, let's pray together. Father, thank youk so much. First for the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank youk for saving our souls. Thank you for the grace of God at work in the hearts of each and every person here, Lord, sowing the seed of the word of God in their heart with the intention to bring forth fruit in us. Lord, as we look at these things, I pray that you'd help us to see and understand the truth. Help us, Lord, to address these practical matters with wisdom and discretion. And Lord, but also have the right spirit and tone that the Spirit of God would be pleased for us to have. Because, Lord, we don't want to just have the right position. We want to have the right position in the sight of God with a clear conscience, but in such a way that is also honoring and glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ. Because we're not here. This church is not here for our own building of some kingdom or anything like that. Our church is here for the name and the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, Lord, may everything we do in our Sunday school, even these things that sometimes can be a bit touchy, I pray that they would be pleasing to you in Jesus name. Amen. So the first question I want you to when we consider why we're not Southern Baptists, one of the main words and points that comes to mind is the word association. Association, that is, what kind there is an association. And I'm not referring to the Greenville Baptist Association. I'm referring to in general terms, the associations with a church and a denominational organization. All right. When you become a part, when your church becomes a part of a denomination, you create a formal association with that denomination. In other words, you link yourself up with them and that association is undeniable. Now you can say, we could say, well, I don't agree with X, Y and Z. That's all fine and good. You might not, and I respect that. But the association and the connection has been formalized. Formalized. Furthermore, that association and connection, in the case of the Southern Baptist Convention and probably other Baptists, but we only have that around Here, that association is not just formal, that is your church on some list somewhere in Nashville or whatever. It's also a monetary association. It's a financial association. And that is a direct link. That is not just I identify as such. No, that is I identify as such and I am linked with an actual link to this organization. Now. So even though we might decry and even though we might object to some things that happen in the Southern Baptist Convention, and I'm going to cover some of those, when you are a cooperating church, which is their terminology, when you are a cooperating church, which means you give a portion of your church's undesignated offerings to the Southern Baptist Convention at some level, when you are a cooperating church, despite your objections, you are linked to them and you are associated with them whether you object or not. Okay? And that creates a problem, scripturally. That creates a problem, scripturally. First Timothy 5, verse 22. Look at what it says. Now, this is spoken in the context of. Specifically in the context of ordination or setting men by the laying on of hands, setting men in places of leadership. We could just. We could pause here and spend some time, right? Because we have problems with this verse among little I independent Baptist churches in a big way, do we not? We have big problems with this. Putting men in positions of spiritual leadership who have not been examined, who have not been. Who have not been watched, who have not been observed, who do not fit the qualifications as described in scriptures, who are not fit. This is, as you can tell, this is a bit of a touchy thing with me. And yet we lay our hands on them and put them in places because we like them. Or the worst one, the most offending one is they're nice. Has nothing to do with it. Has nothing to do with putting someone in a place as a deacon. Has nothing to do with putting someone in a place as a pastor. Has nothing to do with how nice they are. Nothing to do with it. It has to do with spiritual leadership and maturity. That's what it's talking about. So we have a big problem. So we need to sweep around our own front porch, Right? All right. So we're going to do that. Right? We're going to do that. If you're going to be an independent Baptist church, then you can't hide behind denomination. That's us. We can't hide behind denomination. Say, well, this is what they told us to do. Well, they sent this guy and they recommended this guy who used to pastor at this cooperating church. And so we just Trust. No, we can't do that. We're responsible. Because there is no other group that we could say, well, they told us this and that and the other. No, no, we're responsible. So I'm going to be sure that I don't, you know, that I remember the fingers pointing back at me while I point, you know, in their direction as well. But the verse says this. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins, yet keep thyself pure. Neither be partaker of other men's sins. Now, if you are a cooperating church with the Southern Baptist Convention and you give a portion of your money to the Southern Baptist Convention, and that money is then in turn used in any degree to something that is not pleasing to God and not God's will, you are, by scriptural definition, partaking of other men's sins. That's. It's simple. Now, this is spoken in the context of ordination, but the principle, remember, he says, lay hands. Suddenly, that's the specific example. And then the principle backing that up is what we read in the rest of the verse, which is, neither be partaker of other men's sins. That's the principle. Why would we do that? Why would we do that? You see, to associate ourselves either financially or formally or informally, even with someone who is committing something that is against Scripture. Why would we do that? Why would we do that? That itself is a violation of scripture. Look at one more. Look at Ephesians, chapter 5, verse number 11, Ephesians 5, 11. And have no fellowship, no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. And listen, let's not be naive. Unfruitful works of darkness occur among independent Baptist churches, and they occur among Southern Baptist churches and all kinds of churches, right? And the Lord says we're to have no fellowship. Now, we could kind of mince that word fellowship. And we could examine it, maybe say it means this or maybe maybe it means that. Whatever it means, a formal connection with a religious organization is. Definitely falls under that category of fellowship, especially if you're giving them money. Okay? So upon these two principles, and there's others as well, we could go, can two walk together? Except they be agreed? And we go on from there. But these are kind of the primary principles upon which we, our church, made a judgment. Now, other people might make a different judgment, and I acknowledge that. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but other people have to make. As an independent church, each church has to make a judgment based upon Scripture. And they will give an account to God for that. Right. I don't have to be happy about their judgment for them to make a judgment. Why do we always think this? We're going to go on a crusade against the church because they make a judgment different than ours. We might not agree, but we don't have to go on a crusade about it. Here's the point. We will give an account to God. So we have to make a judgment based upon scripture. And as it relates to this, and our church did in 1985, it did. It was not an easy decision. And it cost. It cost. I want to bring up one other thing before we get to Brother Vernon, because I think it directly relates to what some of the things. I don't know what Brother Vernon is going to say. He might start speaking in tongues for all I know. I hope he does, because if he don't, we won't be able to hear him. Some of y' all didn't get that English is a tongue, you know, sorry. But in regards to associations, there is a big. Now, this is. This is. This is one point that's not on. It's not a point that's going to be found on any, like, piece of paper, doctrinal statement, rules and regulations, bylaws, constitution. It's not going to be anything like that as it relates to the question of Southern Baptist Convention. But it is a practical point that is a serious matter. And it is the question of loyalty. Loyalty. Many times, whenever there is a disagreement between the Southern Baptist Convention and the local cooperating church, people in that church will demonstrate that their loyalty does not lie with their local church where they are a member and a part of the body. But their loyalty lies with the Southern Baptist Convention. And sometimes this manifests in their unwillingness to be a part of any church that is not a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. And there is no scriptural ground for that at all. You could argue some points of this, but to say, I will only be a member of a church that is Southern Baptist. There is not a. Not a verse, a letter, or a punctuation mark of scripture that supports that idea. You see, to many people, the Southern Baptist Convention and its big national structure and organization provides a certain level of emotional. Emotional legitimacy to what they're doing. Because it is, you know, it's got millions of dollars. Their budget's in the 200 millions of dollars. You know, they. All of these church. Listen, we do not get our legitimacy as a church or as a Christian from an organization. You Know where we get it from? From the word of the living God, full stop. That's it. This is what it means when we say biblical authority. We were just talking about that, right. A few weeks ago. Biblical authority. This is what it means. We don't get legitimacy from anywhere else. From the word of God. That's it. We can stand upon it and we're good. Right. So sometimes the problem is sometimes people's loyalty does not lie with their church, where they're actually serving the Lord and where people are ministering to them, but their loyalty lies with something else. And I think this is one of the problems Choice Hills had is when the church decided on principle now to withdraw from the Southern Baptist Convention and to stop being an associating church. Some people revealed, and I don't know any of those people. I don't know not. I literally don't know any of them, so I can't speak to any of them personally. But some people revealed that their loyalties did not lie with the church where they served, but with the convention. That's misplaced. That's misplaced. It should be with the local church, which is the scriptural entity where we serve the Lord together. Right? All right, I'm going to give the mic to Brother Vernon. You ready, brother? Speak in English, please. [00:19:51] Speaker B: Yeah, we. We came here in 1985. I mean, 1983. And we came. Pastor Stan Craig was a pastor here then, and he invited us to church. So we came, and we were surprised when we came in the doors here because there were chairs on both sides of the aisles and the choir was full and the balcony was full. And at that time, we had one more pew behind us here. But we were really impressed with the church. And Preacher Stan asked us after his first sermon, he said, what did you think about this church? I said, well, I said, personally, I said, I came from a Methodist church. And I said, they don't preach long. And I said, you preach long? And I said, they don't speak loud. And I said, you spoke loud. And I said, other than that, I said, we enjoyed the service. So we. Like I said, we got saved in 1983, on May 23rd. And at that time, we still wasn't really familiar about the Southern Baptist, because, to be honest with. Like I said, I came from a Methodist church, and I always thought a Southern Baptist church was something below the Mason Dixon line and a Southern Baptist church. So we. There was things going on that we really didn't understand. And we had a building fund run over at furman it was 12 miles, and Betty and I both ran the 12 miles. But that was back 40 years ago, and we noticed that some of the dormitory windows, they had beer cans stacked up in there. So Preacher Stan contacted the president, my brother Paul. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Can you explain the connection with Southern Baptist and Furman? Right, because that's. A lot of people might not know that. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, they were still in the Southern Baptist association at that time. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Furman was a Southern Baptist school. [00:22:36] Speaker B: Yeah, because Furman originally came from where County Square is downtown. That's where they first. Before they moved up here. But anyway, Pastor Stan wrote a letter to the president of Furman and told him that, you know, we were a part of the Southern Baptist association and we didn't approve of them having students with beer cans in the dormitory. Well, he just wrote back and said, that don't concern you. And even though we were putting money into the program, so things started kind of rolling around about, you know, what we should do. We was wanting to get into missions, and Preacher Stan wrote a letter to the mission board, and they just. He wanted them to come out and explain to us about missions, and they just more or less told him they didn't have time to do that. Well, that really got it going good then. And so it came to the point where we could stand in the deacons then. At that time, we had eight deacons in this church because of the size of the church then. So they voted. The deacons voted to pull out of the association. And it came before the church, and everybody voted pull out then. Well, a few months later, a couple of deacons, they left, went to Southern Baptist Church. Then a few more deacons left. [00:24:31] Speaker A: These are the same ones who voted in favor of. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And the same people that were sitting in the pews that voted to pull out, they gradually started leaving and leaving. And we had some friends that we got real close to here in the church. And when they left, people asked us, why didn't y' all leave when they left? I said, well, one reason, I said, the Lord didn't tell us to. I said, we didn't know these people before we came here. And. But it just gradually started. The pews started gradually going down and down. And then I was elected deacon in 1986, and then we had, I think, four deacons at that time. That's what we have supposed to have now. But I've talked to people that have left here. There's a lady in Travis Rest that I have talked to on occasions, and her husband was the deacon then, and she has never had a kind word to say about Choice Hills and about Preacher Stan. I mean it was just like she was talking about the devil when she talked about him. I mean he was a strong willed person because just when he invited us to church, he was going down the halls at what used to be, well, the Memorial Hospital now. And he would go door to door witnessing and he came the room where my wife's sister was and that's when he invited us. And there was not any time, day or night, it doesn't matter what time of the. If at 2 or 3 o' clock in the morning, if he got a call, he would go. He was a faithful servant. And we really, the attendance went down to. At one time we had about 35, 40 people in the church then and a lot of the older people have died. And when Betty and I and our son came and we got saved right down there at the altar. And when we came, it was, everybody was real friendly and everything, but in closed circles it was a little bit different. And but we have been through things here since then. I mean, pretty good. Stan had resigned because of Alzheimer's. And at that time when we talked to Preacher Stan about this, a couple other pastors talked with him as well as the deacons. When he left, all the deacons got blamed for his Alzheimer's. And I mean when he died, they wouldn't even have his funeral here at this church. And this church started over here on Viewmont Drive and also the choice Hills Drive over there. And he was one of the ones that, you know, was the main person for this church. But they wouldn't even have his funeral here at our church. They headed a Southern Baptist church and. [00:28:36] Speaker A: He would not approve of that. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Then we voted in Jeff Stewart as our pastor. And then when he resigned to go back probably into the missions and that's when we elected Pastor Adam. But the thing about Pastor Adam was he grew up under Preacher Stan. I mean we known him ever since he was that tall, which that was. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Like two weeks ago. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And at the, when he was elected, I mean we voted on him to be our pastor. I told him, I said, I've always called you Adam because I've known you when you were little Adam. And I said, what can I call you now? And right Reverend, I think he said, well, he said, you just might call me anything. [00:29:44] Speaker A: That's what I said. [00:29:45] Speaker B: So. But it's been a. To get used to calling Pastor Adam Pastor Adam instead of Adam. But I know we've had people who come to this church that were students over at Furman. And when they found out that we weren't Southern Baptists anymore, this is even after they pulled out, when they found out we weren't Southern Baptists, they came one time and you never did see them again. But we've, it took a while for us to get back to where we were and we still got a ways to go. But it's not the size or the amount of the people in this church, but it's the preaching of this church. I mean, we've got a church right down the road here. Used to be Parish Mountain Baptist Church, now it's Paris Mountain Church. And we got another Presbyterian church up the road. And in the winter months their Service is at 10:45, 11 rather, and Sunday school at 9:45. As soon as the schools gets out, they don't have Sunday school anymore because people are going on vacation. They don't want to, you know, offend anybody. They don't have a Wednesday night service or Sunday night service. And our church has always stood with that principle that we were going to have Sunday school and preaching on Sunday morning and Sunday night and Wednesday night and the revivals and everything that our church has always been known for. And we just, just like people used to call Preacher Stan Standing Stan, and that's what he was. And Betty and I, we've had, you know, some disagreements with Preacher Stand or I have, but I got over it and he got over it. And so far I don't think I've had any disagreements with Adam or Preacher Adam or, you know, whichever you want to call him. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Just wait. I'm not trying hard enough, I guess. [00:32:31] Speaker B: But we've been satisfied here. And it's just, it's hard to explain, you know, exactly what we've been through. But we, at one time when we got into the missions program, Preacher Stan, there wasn't a missionary that come in this door that he didn't like. And we, we was supporting right at 125 missionaries at one time. But that was just a number because the amount that we were supporting them wasn't a great deal. And Preacher Stewart, he started looking at the program and then Preacher Adam also started looking at the program of missions. And we're supporting a lot less, but giving them a lot more. And, but that's just the journey we've had here at Chores Hills. And I know we thought Preacher Stan would be the one that would bury us, but didn't happen. But it's. The church is going to get a lot better than what it is. And I mean, we're better than we were, a whole lot better than we were. So that's about it. That all I can say is we're satisfied here and we're not going anywhere. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Amen. Brother Sam, can you grab that mic from him? I think it's important for those of you that are the. That are newer here to know and understand kind of and catch the continuity of the history of the church. I know when I came here, the church is already out of the Southern Baptist convention around 1996 or so I came. So that was not a fight I was privy to. Right. I wasn't here, but I heard a lot about it. And I saw and heard from Pastor Craig and others about what that looked like at that time. So even though I wasn't here, I developed an appreciation for that reality. And that's one reason why I wanted Brother Vernon to mention that and talk about that is so that you people that are new, newer to our church can kind of pick up on that continuity, even though you weren't here as well, to kind of bring you up to the present. Because everything that has happened has brought us to this point. Right to this point. And it was principle that led us to this point. I'll say a couple things to finish up on this point of associations, which is, you know, we could look at. Well, first of all, let me describe some of the issues that have been in the past or are currently issues related to the Southern Baptist Church that would directly affect our association with them. Issues that have been, have been or currently under debate in the Southern Baptist Convention. Of course, in the past you have things like there were theological liberals that were in the universities. That's. Thankfully, that's gotten a lot better. I'm glad of that. There was a controversy in 1961 and 62 over the historicity of the book of Genesis. There were people, a contingent of people that were teaching that Genesis was not history. It was just mythological, allegorical. That's a serious problem. There have been issues of sexual abuse. There have been cover ups. There have been allegations and there has been money paid out to alleged victims. Of course, this is, you know how it is. There's a, you know, all of this is quieted with these payouts and things. There have been, there have been and continue to be members of Southern Baptist churches that of the convention that are embracing wild philosophies of ministry that we would absolutely repudiate. And this includes missions, ministries, things like, you know, it's the, it's the emergent church movement. It's all of those things that you see going on in churches. A lot of them, even if they're not called Baptist, a lot of them are Southern Baptist. The most. In 2024, there was a. There was a vote that basically it was an amendment to put forth that would require pastors to be men and would preclude calling any woman pastor, even if she wasn't the senior pastor, if she was like a women's pastor or youth pastor or music pastor or whatever. That was a vote that came up before the Southern Baptist Convention. And it was voted down, right? It was voted down now. And there are sometimes from time to time, issues that come up in the Southern Baptist Convention in their annual convention, where something is put forward and it's voted down, and we say something bad, and we say, well, we're glad of that. We're glad it's voted down. But that's not the problem in issues like this. The problem is not what the convention voted on. The problem is the contingent of people that voted for it. The problem is the contingent of people that didn't believe in Genesis, the creation account of Genesis. The problem is the contingent of people who think, among Southern Baptist churches, who think that women should be pastors in violation of the clear commands of Scripture. Because when you're a member church, when you're a cooperating church, there is a direct connection to all of them. And here's the thing. We could go into detail and we could dive into all the ins and outs of all of these little issues, and we might come up with different opinions on them. But here's the thing. What's the need? Right? We have to answer this question. [00:38:50] Speaker B: We. [00:38:50] Speaker A: Without a biblical requirement, why would we voluntarily associate with an organization that has these elements in it at all? Why would we do that? There is no biblical requirement to do that. You know, it's just an unnecessary question, right? It's an unnecessary thing to do. If there was a Southern Baptist church that we. That was. That aligned with our faith and practice, like our Constitution says, which is right, and we wanted to associate with them, we could choose to do that on an individual basis. But why would we formally associate with an organization we know has elements in it that we do not agree with and then give our money to it, it's just totally unnecessary. It's totally unnecessary. Now, we know I got to close, but we know there are independent Baptist churches where this is also true. But the difference is this. We are not formally connected to them, no matter how much people try to connect us by saying, you're an ifb. You're an ifb. You're an ifb. We're not formally connected to them. And you know what? For those cases, you know what we'll do? We'll say, that is not our people. Right. But when you're connected formally and financially, you can't do that. There's no recourse except to withdraw. And long ago, in 1985, that's what the church decided to do. Now, under a different set of issues. Indeed, but issues that stem from the same base. That's the point. That's the point. And so that deals with the question of association. Let's pray together.