Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right. Very good. Well, thank you for being here this morning and for your faithfulness. This morning, we're going to pick up in our study from last week.
We're, of course, talking about our church and answering some questions regarding that. And we've studied the doctrine of the church. We've studied Baptist distinctives and what that means, what doctrines that.
What characteristic doctrines that includes. We're looking now at the question of the word independent, because we are independent Baptists. That is, that's our name. And I mentioned little I. Independent.
Simply put, that is not intended to mean that we stick our thumb in other people's eye just for spite.
That's not what it means. It means we take a principled stand to try and follow the Scripture and to not be involved in any kind of extra biblical organization that we don't find in Scripture. And a lot of that goes back to.
That goes back to the principle of biblical authority, that the Bible is the rule of faith and practice. It's what we believe, and it also guides the way we practice. And.
And so that's why we've been addressing this question of why we are not Southern Baptist.
And again, just to strike the right tone, we're not trying to say is that everybody, people who are Southern Baptists, are automatically going to hell or anything like that. Actually, we're not putting any focus at all on any church that might be a part of that. What we're trying to do is explain where we are.
And if that offends somebody, if we explain what we are, then, I mean, sorry, if it offends you that, you know that I like hamburgers better than hot dog, I'm sorry, that's just the way it goes. But of course, this is a little more important than that.
So what we've looked at so far is we've looked at the history of the Southern Baptist Convention because that's significant. And the history has some good history as far as being started as a missionary organization, the Philadelphia Baptist Association. It was originally started in connection with Adoniram Judson. And then that led to the triennial convention in 1814, which then led to the.
Which then led over the issue of slavery, to the founding of the Southern Baptist convention in 1845 in Augusta, Georgia.
And since 1845, when the Southern Baptist Convention was founded, it has its footprint, its size and its purpose and function has expanded, not stayed the same, but it has expanded, which is basically par for the course. When you talk about organizations, it seems that organizations feel like they're only successful if they get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, they. That's the way the government is.
That's the way families. No families are. Okay? But a lot of organizations, they think they're only successful is to get bigger, bigger and bigger and bigger. And is that not the way people think of churches?
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: You're only successful if you're bigger and bigger and bigger.
And of course, we love to minister to more people and that kind of thing, but that's not really.
Not really an entirely accurate biblical measure of success is just big, big, big, big, big. What if you have a lot of. What if you have, for instance, in a church like ours, what if you have people that have come in, right, for whatever reason, maybe it's what brought them there, maybe what brought them there wasn't such a good thing, and now they're there and they shouldn't be or whatever. And the Lord needs to rid the church of some people. And you say, well, is that the Lord can do whatever he wants. It's his church and he can do what he likes.
But of course, we don't deny that we like to see more people and minister to more people and fellowship with more people and see people grow in things.
But as it is the rule of human nature, the Southern Baptist Convention has just. It's grown, grown, grown. And even we saw earlier that even in its original purposes, even at its start with the Philadelphia Baptist association, at that point, which that was not the Southern Baptist Convention, but the roots of it, even at that point, there was. There were certain things that they were taking upon them that the Bible has given to local churches as its as. As its power and as its prerogative.
And so that has only expanded. What's interesting, though, and we'll pray in just a minute. But what's interesting, though, is since we've started going through this kind of sub study of our larger study, it's been surprising to me how many people that I've met that I've had conversations with on this particular topic who have relayed to me different personal experiences that they have dealt with in their various churches and things, issues related to the Southern Baptist Convention and property issues related to the Southern Baptist Convention and their church charter and articles of incorporation. These are things. This was yesterday, two examples, had two separate conversations, dealt with that as well as a couple of weeks ago as well. So.
So I'm learning as I go and through these, you know, through this information that I'm getting beside the things that I've studied here. So, okay, so let's pray and then we'll get back into the specific reasons that we started with last week. Let's pray together. Father, we just want to commit this time to you and we want to thank you for working in our lives. We want to thank you for, for giving us understanding and wisdom. Lord, we know that we lack so much and we still need more understanding. But more than just knowledge which always puffeth up, we also need charity and we need a right spirit, a gracious spirit. And even as we deal with these things, and we hold these things sincerely and by principle, but yet, Lord, we want to have the spirit of Christ. So Lord, as we look at these things, give us understanding and wisdom. Help your people to grow and increase. And give me wisdom, Lord, as I need help to help them as well. In Jesus name, amen.
So the first reason we looked at as to why our church is not part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and let me pause here and say this, there are many people, well meaning people that are part of the convention in churches and things that it's really never really occurred to them to do or be anything different.
You know, when that's the case, there's a lot of.
There's a big difference between a person like that and a person who has made a conscious decision to align with something that they know very well is in disagreement with what they believe. So you know what, there's a lot of things in our lives, in our church, there's a lot of things that we do. We have never once thought about why we do them the way we do them. We just do it.
And I think a lot of people are like that.
The one caveat I would give to that is that's not really an excuse to not research information though when you are confronted with it.
So there's a limit to that. But the first reason we gave was this. The reason was that there is an absence of any scriptural warrant or basis for a national organization, religious organization. The only thing we find outside of the body of Christ, which is the body of Christ is all believers, both living and dead.
The body of Christ. Outside of that, the only kind of visible organization you see in scripture are local churches. That's it. Period, full stop. There's nothing else.
So anything outside of that is just. There's no verses. There are no verses. Now you might go here, go there to look at something, but it's. You're stretching to do that.
So when you're dealing with something as important as the work of God, we should have Bible basis for These things, it shouldn't be just willy nilly. Well, we think this would be a good idea. Well, that's fine if you're talking about where you're going to go out to eat for lunch or, you know, what kind of car you're going to buy. But when you're talking about the work of the living God, it should have scriptural basis. And so it just doesn't. Okay? The second is the problem of associations.
And we've looked at this, these couple of verses, I'll read them to you. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself pure.
That's 1st Timothy 5:22. And also the principle is reiterated in Ephesians 5:11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
So to be a part of an association or a convention like the Southern Baptist, you are, you are giving, you are participating in a material association.
What that means is, and I know I'm repeating a little bit, but what that means is to be a, what is called a cooperating church in the Southern Baptist Convention, you are expected.
What puts you on that list of cooperating churches is the fact that you pay money to the convention at some level, right? That your undesignated receipt, a percentage of undesignated offerings are given to the convention. That is, that's what makes you a part of it. Okay? That's the nuts and bolts of it. Okay?
So when you give your money to anything, you are making an association.
Everybody agree with that? You are making some. You go to Chick fil a, you are associating with Chick fil a as a customer, right? You do business with somebody, you know.
So it's not just a matter of saying, identifying, I am a Southern Baptist. There's more to it. It's material association. Now, the problem with that, from our perspective, as Brother Vernon pointed out, and again, this has changed over the years, that there are things that are happening as a part of the Southern Baptist Convention that we strongly object to.
Back in the day, in the 80s, Brother Vernon mentioned Furman University when it was a part of the Southern Baptist Convention and how the students were permitted to drink and have co ed dorms and the association with that now you could say, well, we're not actually contributing to that. Yeah, but there is an association with it. And when you involve finances now, there's like a hard association.
That is a great problem.
And the truth is in the Christian life, the biblical principle is whenever, say there's another.
Say, for instance, you had a relationship with another person who was a believer, and that person, for whatever reason, started to go off the deep end and started to get involved in things that you could not have any part of. How many of you have had a situation like that?
What is the right answer in that case? When you know somebody who departs from the Lord, the only. I mean, you can reprove them, right? You can give them the. You can try to call them back to a way of righteousness and that kind of thing. But ultimately, if they persist, the only choice you have is to withdraw.
That's the biblical principle, to withdraw.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: And that's also true of a church. As far as the convention.
Now, are there independent Baptists, little I Independent Baptist churches that do things that I don't agree with? Yes, many of them.
But do I have an association with them?
[00:12:54] Speaker B: No.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: I don't give them money. I don't talk to them. I don't hang out with them. I don't go to their things.
The only association is association in name, and that is not really by my choosing. That's just the way it goes.
So the difference is that in this case, in the case of an independent Baptist church, that does something I don't agree with, that we don't agree with, we have a recourse. We can just withdraw from them and that's it.
But when you're a member of the convention, you have a direct connection to them, and that's the whole issue.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Okay.
Here are some issues that have been. Are currently under debate in the Southern Baptist convention. In 2024, there was a vote.
In the 2024 convention, there was a vote, an amendment was raised to ban women being referred to as pastors in any pastoral role, like a woman's pastor or a youth pastor or a music pastor.
So the question was not can a woman be a senior pastor of a church? That wasn't the question. The amendment wanted to ban the use of pastor for any woman in any pastoral position. Okay. It wasn't saying a woman couldn't be in ministry. It was just. It was really banning the title. All right, that amendment was passed. Which is a good thing. Okay, That's a good thing. The problem is not that it was passed, but the problem is the cohort that were against the amendment.
Right, That's. So we're. And again, I'm repeating myself a little bit. But we're thankful for the movement among the Southern Baptist churches in a conservative direction. We're glad for that.
But the problem is not that. The problem is the ones who oppose that movement and the direct association with them.
Another thing that's very common, you do not have to go far in Greenville is the number of Southern Baptist churches. And again I say this, I know there are independent churches that do this too. But again, the issue is association. The number of Southern Baptist churches that have embraced an extremely progressive and seeker sensitive view of ministry.
Yeah, there's wokeness that's even by the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. There's a certain, there's people in that hierarchy that have gone kind of in a woke, religious woke kind of way. But even if you look at the philosophy of ministry, you know, where it's extremely secret, sensitive, you know, you have the big rock bands and you have, you know, things that churches that you would never go to, you would never, on principle, you would never darken the doors of a church like that because you believe that's against the scripture. Why would we then have a direct association with those churches, especially when it's not necessary?
And those things are common, they're not uncommon. Even churches in Podunk towns in South Carolina are, you know, are doing contemporary and you know, concerts and all that other stuff.
Now in the previous era there have been questions and issues regarding theological liberals there I mentioned last week there's been questions regarding the historicity of Genesis. There are people, cohorts in the convention that did not believe in the historicity of Genesis.
And of course you have issues of sexual abuse allegations and the COVID ups money has actually been paid out of the coffers of Southern Baptist, the Southern Baptist Convention as parts of settlements from these issues, from these allegations. Did those allegations, were those true? I have no idea at all.
But would we want a portion of our church's undesignated offerings to go to pay to a settlement that had nothing to do with us at all?
That might even be true.
I don't want $1 to go to that.
Now if there was an issue like that in this church, God forbid God help us to confront that with all of our might. But if that happened, that's our problem.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:24] Speaker A: But why am I going to participate in another person's sin?
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:29] Speaker A: So this is the, these are the kinds of issues that we must deal with.
If, if this kind of association is not necessary, why would we voluntarily associate with an organization? As I said last week, if we wanted to associate with an individual church as an example, then we could choose to do that if we wanted to.
But there's no purpose in joining with the convention. So there is a question of association. All right, the next one. Look at Acts chapter 14 really quick.
The next reason is the convention has encroached upon biblical functions of local churches.
Acts chapter 14.
We'll just go through these things quickly. Acts 14:23.
These are the missionaries that are going to the various churches. Verse 23 says, and when they had ordained them elders in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord on whom they believe.
So these missionaries, when they go to a church within the context of that local church, they're ordaining spiritual leaders, right?
That is a function of the church, the local church.
The problem with that is that from the beginning, conventions have taken upon themselves to be the ordaining body.
But that's not a biblical function of. Well, first of all, there is no biblical function of that group.
And ordination of spiritual leaders is something that's done in local churches. Okay?
And in that way, they have encroached and invaded something that the Bible and the Lord by the Scripture, has given to the local church. Look at Ephesians, chapter. I'm sorry, Philippians, chapter 4, 4:15.
Philippians, 4:15 says this.
Paul, speaking to the Philippian Church, says this. Now, ye, Philippians, know also that in the beginning of the Gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving. But ye only, for even in Thessalonica, ye sent once and again unto my necessity. What this church is doing is this church has decided as a church to send Paul money to support him.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: The problem is, obviously, there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem is that the Southern Baptist Convention, as its founding principle, is a mission, a cooperative missionary agency. That's what its original purpose was.
And when you do, basically, you take your Lottie Moon and your Annie Armstrong, and there's one other. I always forget the name. Somebody might know it in here. But you take that and you send it in to the Southern Baptist Convention, and they decide who gets what money.
But in the Scripture, the local church decided who gets what money. And that was at a time when it was difficult to send people money. And yet they did.
And so at this point, here's what we say, some people, they are drawn to the cooperative feel of a cooperative missionary program.
So they like the fact that all the churches are cooperating. But what happens if missionaries are getting part of our money that we do not agree with?
What recourse do we have?
None.
Because the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board make those decisions. We might be able to write a letter, but we're one voice. It ain't gonna make a difference.
You see, the biblical principle is that our church decides where our money goes for missions.
That's what we see here, and that's why we do it. So the cooperative program, it might give us a warm, fuzzy feeling.
And here's the other thing is when you start paying attention to the, you start doing, running the numbers and comparing the amounts of missions giving between Southern Baptist churches and independent churches, especially independent churches that are missions, are missions focused, which is what we're supposed to be, right?
The amount of money that you guys, you, this church give on a per capita basis far exceeds orders of magnitude more than the per capita giving within an average Southern Baptist church.
And not only that, but your money, there's almost no overhead.
When we send money to missionaries, there's very, very little overhead. They get practically all the money.
And what those missionaries are doing, we are certain that those missionaries are engaged in activity that is making what we believe to be the best use of that money.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: As compared to other missionaries that we wouldn't support who might be doing things that we might not necessarily agree with or prioritize.
Not only that, look at Acts, chapter 13, Acts 13, verse number two, Acts 13:2. This is a very important point, actually. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, separate me, Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted, that's the church now, the church at Antioch and prayed and laid their hands, that's the church at Antioch on them. They. The church at Antioch sent them away.
They being sent forth by the Holy Ghost departed undisolution. You see this.
Who sent these missionaries out? The church did.
Who laid their hands on them? The church did.
Who did God talk to to send these missionaries?
The church, the church, the local congregation.
Here's the problem.
Is that how you know, in a Southern Baptist context, how missionaries are chosen and where they go and what fields they.
They go to, and those kinds of things is something that is decided on a level above the local church, on the level of the International Mission Board or the North American Mission Board. But that's not a biblical pattern.
Now, all of these things, I could go into other things, like how ministry leaders are vetted, how missionaries are vetted, who establishes, you know, the Southern Baptist has what's called a Baptist faith and message, which is the doctrinal statement that is not chosen by individual churches, that's chosen by the convention establishing teaching institutions to teach the Scripture. That is a function of the local church. That's not a function of a convention. So all of these things are functions and prerogatives of what is supposed to be prerogatives of the local church from the perspectives of scripture.
But as a general rule, human beings gravitate toward allowing other people to make decisions for them, do we not? It's easier that way, because if it all falls apart, it's not our problem.
Somebody else made the decision, Right?
But in the Scripture, every one of us will give an account of himself to God.
In the scripture, we as a congregation, that burden falls upon us.
We can't just simply delegate it and say, well, they'll make the decisions of what missionaries to send and who gets what money, and they'll make the decisions about what our doctrine is, and they'll make the decision. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We make that decision, and we'll give an account to God for that.
There's also. I'll say this and move on. There's also what is called a. What I call a kingdom mentality that exists this in some parts of the Southern Baptist Convention. And I've seen this firsthand, this idea that the local church is a minor function.
But where God's kingdom, God's great work is happening is on the level of the denomination, because that's where the movers and shakers are, and that's where the money's going, and that's where the. The global ministry is happening.
It's there.
In other words, I've heard people with my own ears describe, well, the local church must yield to God's kingdom work. And when they say God's kingdom work, it's never directly stated, but it's roughly synonymous with this denominational work that is not scriptural.
God's kingdom work is practiced. The cogs turn in local churches.
Not this kind of abstract thing where, you know, you have the big wigs who are telling all the. All the little people what to do. That's not. That's God's work is you. All God's work is local churches.
That's where God's work is happening.
When? Yesterday, when. When. When we went out and did our evangelism. That is God's work. You being here hearing the word fellowshipping, ministering to one another, that is God's work.
That's just the highest level of it in scripture.
So there is a certain kind of unspoken looking lightly upon the local church and how it's subservient to God's kingdom work. No, no, no, no. This is the work of the kingdom of God.
This is it.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Right?
[00:28:16] Speaker A: All right, so that is encroachment upon the biblical function of local churches.
The next one is another reason is there is a practical effect upon missions.
There is a practical effect upon missions. As we've already seen in scripture, sending missionaries is something that is done by local churches. That is the example given in scripture. And the Southern Baptist Church, the Southern Baptist Convention rather does indeed give lip service to this idea. But in practice, the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board is the sending organization from start to finish. If you want to become a missionary, you go to one of those two mission boards and you have to apply, you have to meet their requirements. They appoint you, they fund you, and they retire you.
In other words, if you're associated with the church, it is only nominally, name only.
The convention is doing everything.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: All right.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: And again, that's just has no scriptural warrant.
Even independent Baptist churches have started to delegate. What is the church's responsibility in sending missionaries to mission boards?
We think, well, the. The mission board will vet the missionary. The mission board will make sure they have the right amount of money. The mission board will make sure they stay right. The mission board will be accountable. Listen, that's not right. That's not the mission board's job.
At most, a mission agency is supposed to ensure that the funding of the missionary gets it. That's the primary purpose of its establishment. It is. Listen, church, it is our job.
If we send a missionary, it is our job to keep up with him. It's our job to make sure that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. It is our job to help him if he has to leave the field for an evacuation. It is our job to make sure that he's a trustworthy servant of God. It is our job to do those things. It's not some board's job according to the Bible.
But what has been the effect?
This is the real sad part when churches just delegate it off to either a mission board or in the case of the convention, they just delegate all that off to some faraway international or North American mission board. You know what happens? The church loses touch with missions, right?
Just set aside the kind of missionaries, the quality, you might say, of missionaries. Because there is a distinctive difference having been a missionary, there is a distinctive difference in focus and seriousness in the work of God between Southern Baptist missionaries and independent. There is just an observed Difference. I've been around some fantastic missionaries. They were true servants of God, right?
But when you have, when you delegate all of that off to some faraway organization, and this is one issue Pastor Craig had, right, is he could not get people get missionaries.
This church was sending money to these mission boards and could not get a missionary to come to this church to just say, hi, you know what happens? Yes, sir.
And the truth is, it's a farce anyway because even if a missionary came, our church's money wasn't going to that guy. It was going to a big pot.
And whoever, nobody that we know, whoever was deciding where that money was going, do you not see a fundamental problem with that?
Especially given the fact that this is God's money, right?
How we spend it, we give an account to God, we can't say, well, God, I gave it to them. That's their problem. Whoa, hold on. That's not right.
That's not right.
And anecdotally, and some of you that have been in Southern Baptist churches, I know I've met many people who have.
And almost to the person they'll say something like this.
When they started coming, when they started going to an independent church that was missions focused, right?
They met for the first time a real life flesh and blood missionary.
And you know what happened? There was a whole area of service missions that was put before them that they had never even thought of.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: You know, your pastor's wife was that way.
Your pastor's wife was that way.
First time she had any interaction with missionaries to speak of at all was at Choice Hills Baptist Church.
You know, when it was after we got married, the first April, we got married in December. The next April, 2001 is when our church had a missions conference and she met missionaries for the first time, that had a major impact on her because there was a whole area of ministry that she had never even thought about. People go all the way to the other side of the world to tell people about Jesus and that's it.
And then she became one.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Right?
[00:34:04] Speaker A: So when out of sight, out of mind, when that's not in our mind, we're not thinking about that. We're not thinking about missions. But yet in scripture, is it not like a huge matter?
It is. Then why isn't a huge matter in church? It should be. We should know missionaries. The Philippian Church knew missionaries.
The Colossian Church knew missionaries. The churches in Galatia knew missionaries, did they not? Of course.
Missionaries came in, reported church, Antioch sent out missionaries. This is the way the church of God is supposed to be. Supposed to be done.
And you know, it's so sad for people to have no idea that that even is a thing or only know of it kind of in. In the abstract. Yeah. Somewhere they do mission something, whatever that means.
So what then is the downstream effect of that? Here's the downstream effect.
Out of sight, out of mind. Are you going to give your money to it? Are you definitely going to give sacrificially?
No. You don't know a missionary, you'll tip the offering. So because you don't want to be kind of ashamed, you know, you'll tip the offering. When the anti Armstrong offering or the Lottie Moon comes around, you'll tip it.
But the idea of you sacrificially giving, you know, is you don't know anything. What they're doing, I mean, I'm telling you right now, I tell you, when they flip that little thing around at the restaurant, you know what I'm talking about, the coffee shop or whatever, they flip that around and say tip. It's no every time. You know why?
Because I don't know where that money is going.
If I have a good barista and I want a tip, well, fine. But I'm not putting it just in the pot for somebody else to decide where it goes.
