Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: We'll go straight into our lesson and let's pray first. We'll do a bit of review, just a little bit to bring us up to speed because we're on the same subject as we have been the last several weeks. But I hope to finish up this portion of our study so that next week we can turn to a new thing.
And of course, our study is, we're calling it our church. And we're looking at not only scriptural doctrine of the church in general, but we're looking also at how that applies to our specific church.
And so we've covered a number of things that are relevant for our church and how our church identifies itself and what those identities mean and why they're important and what kind of tone and attitude we should have with those that differ with us. That's another thing we've been talking a lot about.
So let's pray to begin and ask the Lord to bless us and teach us and help us as we look at these things and give us wisdom. Our Father, thank you for the opportunity to study your word here this morning.
Lord, thank you for loving us and putting us, Lord, in your body. The church. Thank you. Thank you for the church. Not only that, but also for the local manifestation of the body of Christ, this local assembly where we gather together to serve you and we see one another and encourage one another. And I pray that you give us wisdom and grace, Lord, to have one heart and one soul. Today, I pray that you would help our heart and our soul to be inclined to your truth to the word of God and that we would grow from it. Because we know, Lord, that it is by the word of God that we grow.
And, Lord, we just pray you give us a great desire to know the Word. And as we look at these things, some of which are based in your word, some of them are applications of scriptural principles and practical matters as well. Please help us to understand them, help us to receive them, and that we would profit and benefit from them. So, Lord, we commit the time to you in Jesus name. Amen.
So we've been considering the question, what is Independent Baptist? And we are down at the subject of missions. And of course, we're answering that question as it relates primarily to the Southern Baptist Convention, because obviously we're not part of the Southern Baptist Convention. That is, we are not a cooperating church. That's their term.
And we're looking at the reasons for that. And one of the reasons, the reason we looked at yesterday or last week rather, and the week before was even Though the Southern Baptist Convention was started originally as basically a missionary organization, and it really still is a large part of what their activities.
I know you might not think of it like that, but a large part of what they do is not about their churches but about their mission organization. And that's not a bad thing. That's not something to criticize.
But it is absolutely possible to do missions without that. It's totally possible. We do it here.
It's totally possible to do that.
But there is. When you start talking about missions and getting the gospel around the world and those kinds of issues, you do have some issues that you have to deal with and decide upon as it relates to the Southern Baptist Convention and their method of doing it. Now, as a review, the method of the Southern Baptist Convention to do missions. And this then will in turn inform us as to whether we should participate in this kind of method. Okay, It's a cooperative method. It's called the Cooperative program. So you have the International Mission Board under the Southern Baptist Convention, and you have the North American Mission Board namb.
And there are two offerings that go into that every year. Every year there's an offering made. The Lottie Moon offering is made to fund, primarily to fund the International Mission Board. And the Annie Armstrong offering is made to fund the North American Mission Board.
And what you might not know is that money from the North American Mission Board is often sent to churches.
It's always sent to churches in the United States, and it might be churches not far from here, where churches are maybe being revitalized or maybe want to do an upgrade on their facilities or restart a church or whatever, and that money is funneled to those groups. But then the question becomes, that church, where that money's being sent from, the North American Mission Board, what is that church doing?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Right?
[00:05:00] Speaker A: Are there strings attached to that church? Listen, if money is sent to them, even if strings aren't attached in the form of a document or a contract, yet the strings are attached in the form of reciprocation, duty of reciprocation. And that's not always spoken, but it's understood. Now, that's not. To be honest with you, that's not right.
That's not right to give money with strings attached to it.
The work of God is not transactional in that way.
But putting that aside, here's the question. If there are these churches about, and I don't know who they are, because this is not exactly public information, but if these churches are getting money from the North American Mission Board, would you go to that church and would you give your money to that church as an example? I mean, I don't know. But as a priority, I think I would say it seems evident that the priorities of the Southern Baptist Convention, especially considering who's been leading the mission boards, are not for churches that are similar to ours or churches that would be churches that we would go to and support.
It's definitely in the movement toward the emergent church and progressive style churches, even if they're sound in doctrine, which I can't speak to that yet, their style of worship is problematic. And I'm going to cover this later when we talk about our church and the music and you know, why we don't have smoke machines and all that.
We'll talk about that later. But if the question is if I would not go to that church, if I would not give my money to support that church because I have objections to what they're doing, why would I give my money to an organization that is then going to give money to that?
I'm just not interested. Does that mean I hate them? No. Does that mean I think they're all going to hell? No. Does that mean that I think they're a totally lost cause? No.
But as a matter of principle, that's not something I'm going to support.
It's just that simple. Can we. Is it possible for us to say that without gritting our teeth or being angry, to stand on a principle and to not be a jerk about it?
Yeah, it is. It's possible.
But see, that's exactly what has happened. So you translate that then to the International Mission Board and that's what I want to talk about today, which is the money's not only going to churches and ministries in the United States via the North American Mission Board, but it's going overseas to missionaries and ministries via the International Mission Board. The question then must be asked, would I support those missionaries and those ministries?
That's the question. Because the answer to that question is the same answer to the question of whether we should support and give money toward the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board. Because you say, well, it's. But it's such a small amount. Well, I get that, of course, I understand that.
But any amount, if I'm not willing, if I wouldn't give, if I had it, if I wouldn't give $5,000 to the United Way for some conscientious reason, I wouldn't give $5 to the United Way. I wouldn't give 5 cents to the United Way. If the Issue is a conscientious matter, right, Brother York, would you do that? Would you give the difference between $500.05 if you have a fundamental problem with it, the answer is no, just not going to do it.
So these are some of the issues, without question, a church like ours, absolutely.
You as individuals, many of you, I can't speak to all of you, but you as individuals absolutely would have a serious problem. Problem with a lot of the ministries and missionaries that receive money from the North American Mission Board and the International Mission Board. Now, that doesn't mean you would have a problem with them all, but you would definitely have problem with some of them, probably a substantial number of them just shooting straight with you, being honest.
Okay, but this is the method of the Southern Baptist program.
Now, some people view this cooperative method as the gold standard because everybody's cooperating.
Well, we cannot sacrifice our principles on the altar of cooperation.
Principles.
Principles supersede unity.
Principles supersede unity. Now, you know, that's not the spirit of this age. The spirit of this age is cast the principles, the doctrines, the truth of scripture away for the sake of unity.
And that's just not something we're going to do. Now, that doesn't mean, again, just to reiterate, that doesn't mean everybody is our enemy because they disagree with us. That's not the same. But it also means that especially as a matter of fellowship in ministry and mutual support in ministry, that's just not somewhere we're going. All right, so this is the effect upon missions in the Southern Baptist case. But we also talked about last week how that because of the cooperative method and because of the centralization of the money, which is what's happening, the centralization of missions in the convention and not distributed out in the churches, which, interestingly enough, there's a parallel between the United States government system, right, with a representative democracy with distributed power. That's not the right word. What's the word? Not distributed.
Localized.
I can't. Decentralized. That's it.
The United States has largely decentralized power. If you've ever gone to another country, especially countries in Europe or in Asia, where they have an extremely powerful, strong central government, the idea of decentralizing power on a lower level is not something people are interested in.
Our government largely has that. Most laws are local laws that we deal with. You know, that speeding laws and all that, even murder and stuff is all state. It's all decentralized. So there's a parallel. Just for trivia, there's a parallel between that and the scriptural example of the decentralization of the churches, not this conglomerate, because that didn't exist in the New Testament. Okay, everybody with me?
But the practical effect of that is that many people in Southern Baptist churches and this is reviewed, have never had any substantial interaction with missionaries because it's all done up here instead of down here, unless you're a big church and you have clout and influence. And of course they'll be sent out to go to those big churches because that's where most of the money goes. But when it's decentralized, all of you have the opportunity to meet missionaries. And we try to frequently. In fact, in the next couple of months, we have a missionary coming, going to Papua New Guinea, I believe, if I'm not mistaken.
But the effect is when you don't interact with missionaries, that in turn is going to affect how important missions is to you as an individual child of God.
And it is also going to affect whether your church is focused on that most important ministry or whether it's focused on something else.
And of course, in Scripture, missions ministry is very important. But there's another issue. There's another issue with that centralized method of the cooperative method, where you pool all your money together and then the movers and shakers are the ones that make the decision about who gets what and goes where and that kind of thing.
For my class at Tabernacle, which is called Missions and the Church, I did a brief study.
This was in 2020 when I first started teaching the class. And I looked up the publicly available numbers from the Southern Baptist Convention of the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board.
And I got the various statistics because I wanted to know which method, whether the cooperative method or the call it decentralized method that we practice here, where churches individually support missionaries, if which method is more efficient, in other words, which method gives the greater amount of actual money sent to missionaries per person?
Of course, there are many more Southern Baptist churches. There are many more Southern Baptist church members than there are independent Baptists.
That's obvious. So in absolute numbers, of course, they're going to have a lot more money than we're going to see in our church. But that's not how God reckons it. The Lord reckons it like the widow's mite. He's looking at the individual giver, right? Is that scriptural right? We're not looking at, well, our church did this and everybody, even though you didn't give or I didn't give anything, he's not going to say, oh, well, you're a member of that church, so, you know, here's your reward. That's not how it works. That's not how it works.
So here are the numbers.
The Southern Baptist convention in 2020, and this is straight off their website.
The North American Mission board budget was 129,409,983.
The International Mission Board budget was 262,363,000.
You add those two together, and that's the entire missions program of the Southern Baptist Convention. Everybody with me, that number, if you're writing it down, you can write it down, it's fine.
Is 391,772,983.
So say 392 million. For round numbers, you say, man, that's a lot of money that can go to support a lot of missionaries. There's no question about that.
There's no question about that.
That is a lot of money.
I also looked up the attendance, the average Sunday attendance.
Now, remember, this money comes from the worldwide. Okay, I looked up the average Sunday attendance, which is in the same document, of Southern Baptist churches per week on an average Sunday.
The average total attendance of the convention, the churches within the convention, is 4,439,797, 4.4 million. Okay? So if you take them, aggregate all the churches together and you take the average.
This is the average on an average Sunday during the year. Everybody with me?
So you do a simple calculation where you take the budget, you divide the budget of the two mission boards, divide it by the average Sunday attendance, and you get an average per person per year, figure of how much an average person would give. And the answer is $88.24 per person per year.
Okay? That's using their numbers from 2020.
So I also have. I also got some information from a friend of mine also in 2020. And this is a church in Pennsylvania. This is a small church, this church, and this is a real church. Victory Baptist Church.
That church in 2020 gave $32,856.
Now, that's far less than 391 million.
Right now, it is one church. But the average Sunday attendance on Sunday morning for this church, average, was about 51.
Okay?
So you do the division, you get $644.24 per person per year.
Remember that number, the average attendance includes kids, it includes non members, and it includes non givers.
So if you only included the givers, this number would be a lot higher.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:59] Speaker A: But again, we're Trying to compare apples to apples, right?
$644.24 per person per year. Alright, so what I did yesterday, I looked at our church From January to May 2025, using the numbers that Sister Karen provides, which is of course our church's numbers.
We average in those five months. We average $3,624 per month in those five months.
Okay.
Now if you make that, if you annualize that, you just multiply it by 12, you get 43,490.
Okay? So that's $43,490 for the year. If you on the average. Okay. As for the first five months of this year.
Now, I then kind of went through in my mind how many people we have in church. So I just counted, went through, everybody's went through the list we have and the visitors that come faithfully and that kind of thing.
And we come down to 77 regular attenders who are present, including children, including non members, including everyone. Okay. It's about 83 because we have about six people that are members of our church but can't come. I don't have any idea if they give in the offering or not. I have no idea about that. But they come. If you count those, you would have 83.
Okay, so we'll just stick with the 77 numbers because we assume those are the people that are likely to be giving.
Again, this includes adults, children, members, non members, givers and non givers without distinction. You do the division, you come up with $564.81 per person per year.
564.81.
Okay, so let's compare the numbers in all three cases. Now, this was 2025. Those were 2020. So there's a little bit of difference there. But in all three cases you have a per person per year dollar figure.
$88 for the Southern Baptist Convention, $644 for the church in Pennsylvania, $564 for our church from the first five months.
What does that mean?
That means that on average Victory Baptist Church in Pennsylvania gives 7.3 times the amount per person per year than the Southern Baptist Convention does. And Our church gives 6.4 times per person per year more than the Southern Baptist Convention. So based upon those numbers, and I know you could find fault in my method, that's not the question. But what is clear is that this is orders of magnitude different as far as efficiency of giving. Do you know why? There's a lot of reasons this might be probably the biggest reason is because you see missionaries.
So it's actually the centralized method of the cooperative system has actually hurt the missions giving. Because the effect has been people don't get to be around missionaries, interact with them, see them and pray for them. And I'm telling you, this is a real thing. And I've heard a lot of people say this, I mean, but the truth is this, the same issue could be true of an independent church that never has missionaries in.
The effect would be the same.
So when you're looking purely at the numbers and efficiency, 7.3 times or 6.4 times more funding per person per year.
Now, what are the other causes of this wide gap?
Well, let me venture on a few.
Besides what I already mentioned, Southern Baptist churches generally speaking, are far more cultural than independent Baptist churches.
What I mean by that is they're infected far more profoundly with cultural Christianity.
And you don't have to go very far. You go to any small town in the south, you'll find First Baptist Church and you'll find some well to do influential people there that as a matter of their duty to their society are upstanding members of the First Baptist Church or First Methodist Church or First Presbyterian Church or in Greenville it might be the Second Presbyterian Church, you know, because we have that. But they do let us park in their parking lot for a fee. But anyway, so it is a matter of social respect that you attend the First Baptist Church of so and so.
So that lends itself toward a cultural Christianity.
Why are you at that church?
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: Because they're holding fast the faithful word as they have been taught or for a cultural reason.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: I mean, that's a serious question.
I don't want anybody in this church because they're trying to fill in some cultural societal expectation. I don't want any, not a single person here. That's that.
I want everybody here that the Lord wants here and that wants to be here on scriptural principles.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Right?
[00:23:45] Speaker A: Because they believe it is God's will.
Not for any other, for any other reason.
Furthermore, I would say this discrepancy, and this is just me talking, but I would say that there seems to be a much more serious mind toward ministry among rank and file people.
Church members in Independent Baptist churches versus Southern Baptist churches, in other words, Independent Baptist. And I'm speaking as a group, although I don't really like to do that, but I have it. I mean, I've been to dozens if not hundreds of independent Baptist churches, right, as a missionary.
And I have seen a general desire to take the things and ministry of God very seriously.
Now, it might not always be as serious as it needs to be, but just as a matter of comparison, Right.
And so these reasons, I think, probably account for this big discrepancy.
But there's another issue here that I think is worth our mentioning.
Look at Romans, chapter 16, if you would. Romans 16.
We're going to look at several verses here. I want to show you.
And this is really basically the last point on this question, which is this.
Why are we not a cooperating church? Well, on the subject of missions, I think there is a serious question as to the quality of missionaries that the Southern Baptist Convention is sending out versus, generally speaking, independent Baptist missionaries.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Right?
[00:25:55] Speaker A: There's a difference. I am not saying every Independent Baptist missionary is a good missionary. That's certainly not the case. Or that every Southern Baptist missionary is a bad missionary. I'm not saying that either. But I'm saying there is a difference in quality. Here's why.
Because whatever is happening within the Southern Baptist Convention more broadly is also going to be happening among its missionaries.
That's true of independent Baptist churches and missionaries as well.
So you need not look much further than the trends of the Southern Baptist Church Convention to see the trends also of the Southern Baptist missionaries, because they are taking those things overseas.
I've observed it. They are doing it.
Okay, listen to these verses. Romans 16, verse number 17.
Now beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, avoid them, for they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly. And by good works, words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Now, when you. I only read that. I'm not trying to say, well, this is a description of the Southern heaven. I'm not saying that. What I am trying to show you is the word doctrine. Now, doctrine in Scripture is actually a word derived directly derived from the word teacher.
Doctrine is simply that which you teach. So doctrine is not necessarily things that you would write in a doctrinal statement on paper, although it includes those like the deity of Christ or premillennialism or Calvinism or whatever.
But doctrine also refers to the things you might teach regarding practical matters as well, like divorce and remarriage, like the roles of husbands and wives, like how you should use your money, like moral matters. All of these things are under the umbrella of doctrine because they're all forms of teaching. Everybody with me. So when you see the word doctrine, you don't need to just think of the deity of Christ, although that's important. It also refers to other things. And you'll see what I'm saying in just a minute. Notice the doctrine is mentioned contrary to the doctrine which you have learned. So the question is, are there missionaries among the Southern Baptist in the Southern Baptist Convention that are teaching doctrine that is contrary to what we hold?
Again, not just on paper, but also what they teach in practice, because that's included. All right, look at Galatians, Chapter one.
Galatians, chapter one, verse six.
Verse six says, I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel which is not another, but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
There are some preachers, both independent and Southern Baptist, and I'll address that in a minute, that present the gospel in a way that is borderline heretical.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: That.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Deny that a person must repent, and that's not just on paper, that affects the very way that you speak to them. Whether sin is a matter that you address at all, or do you just get someone to give mental assent? I am a sinner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These questions. There are preachers, there are evangelists, and there are missionaries there that are teaching error both on paper and in practice.
I don't have any part of that.
I don't want any part of that. Well, you say. Well, but you just said it's happening among independent Baptists, too.
I don't have any part of that because of the word independent.
Why would I have any part of it then?
By sending money to the International Mission Board or the North American Mission Board, which is then distributed to people like that. I don't support it. I don't want any of my money to go there. Does that make sense?
The difference, again, I repeat, the difference is among independent churches, we have recourse because we just don't have to participate with those.
You can't do that if you're a cooperating church.
You are locked in.
You are materially connected.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: First Timothy. Look at that, if you would. Chapter one.
First Timothy, Chapter one, verse number ten.
This is a good example of the doctrine that's not talking about something that's written on paper, but it's talking about what they're being taught to do and live, how they're being taught to live. Verse 10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons. And if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound, what does that say? Doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. You see, Contrary to sound doctrine.
That's what we're asking the question, should we support missionaries or ministries that are teaching things that we hold are contrary to sound doctrine?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: That's the question.
Look at first Timothy, chapter six, same book, chapter six.
This gets even more clear.
Verse three. If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy and strife, railings, evil, surmisings, etc. Now, here's the thing.
When you look at that. If any man teach otherwise, you know, all of these people who are involved in ministry think that they're doing what the Bible says to do, do they not?
If you have any question, just ask them. They'll tell you. Yeah, this is, you know, they have women preaching, they're speaking in tongues.
They're not holding biblical standards for morality.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: They're covering up things that should be exposed and dealt with.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:11] Speaker A: All of these things are doctrine.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: And they'll tell you they believe, and in many cases, I don't doubt their sincerity, that they think they're doing right by the Scripture. But that don't mean I have to agree. Just because, Sam, just because you say, well, I think I'm doing God's will doesn't mean I have to believe you.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: It must be tested by the Bible, because everybody that is doing that, it says they're doing the will of God is saying that the Bible's behind them. Of course, you see, that's why everyone else will give an account of ourselves to God.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Right?
[00:33:55] Speaker A: All right, almost finished here. Look at second Timothy, chapter number one.
I want to follow this up with something about preachers, like guest speakers that we might have.
I can't speak to anybody else, but I want to tell you this.
I'm never going to invite a guest preacher just because he's an independent Baptist.
If I understand or know that he is in some way saying something contrary to sound doctrine.
I don't care if he's got my label or not.
I don't care if he carries around a King James Bible because the scripture admonitions preclude that.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Even if he's in our camp, I couldn't care less about that.
Couldn't care less about that.
Second Timothy, chapter one, verse number 13 says this.
Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Look at Titus, chapter 1, verse 9.
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught.
See this? Titus, chapter 2, verse 1.
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine. Notice when he says that, he's not talking about premillennialism or the deity of Christ. He's talking about that the aged men be this, that the aged women that do that, that the young men do this.
Those aren't doctrinal statement things. You know what they are. They're teaching.
This is the way you're supposed to be. This is God's standard. This is what the Lord wants us to do.
Okay?
So I wanted to show you in Scripture why the doctrine is so important and what the Lord's responsibility, what the responsibility the Lord has given to us regarding maintaining that.
And that answers directly to the question of why we would or would not be involved materially, financially, with something like the International Mission Board or the North American Mission Board.
I will say this, and I'll be finished.
Generally speaking, and I'm speaking broadly here, so forgive me if I. Everybody, I can't cover every exception. So I'm just speaking broadly here, and this is my observation.
Generally speaking, Independent Baptists have taken scriptural teaching and principles very seriously.
You say, well, I know this preacher and that preacher and this church and that church don't seem to do that. I agree with you, but just hear me out.
In fact, their seriousness towards scriptural teaching and principles is one of the reasons why. Why they became. Originally became independent.
It was on mostly on scriptural grounds because it was painful in many churches. It was very painful. We're far removed from that now. The lines have been drawn mostly now. So people that are independent Baptists, especially these up and coming preachers, young preachers in their 20s and early 30s and things, they haven't paid a price for anything. They've always been that. So they don't understand the pain involved. Even myself, I wasn't here when, when Brother Vernon described what happened with the Southern Baptist Convention.
But it is true that upon scriptural teaching and principles, that's one of the reasons they became independent.
It was out of a serious deference for scriptural admonitions. It was out of a willingness to upset the status quo in order to follow those principles. And it was out of a readiness to stand solely by faith on scriptural ground, even if they stood alone.
See, that's what it took for people who were cooperating churches in the convention to pull out is it took people with some backbone who took the things of God in scripture very seriously. Because otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Otherwise they wouldn't do it because it was hard In a religious society that's almost uniformly Southern Baptist in this area, intentionally choosing not to be that was frowned upon, like Brother Vernon said.
But the principles of scripture outweighed those social considerations.
This is what it means to take the scripture seriously.
Now, in closing, these things then translate into how serious one takes scriptural principles regarding their methods of missions as missionaries.
Because things like pragmatism and syncretism, in other words, you're willing to compromise scriptural principles to get a crowd or to get so called converts. Those are basically the meaning of those. And on a difficult mission field, those temptations are real.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Right?
[00:39:25] Speaker A: But they compromise sound missions ministry and the purity of the work of God directly and profoundly in the midst of difficult missions ministry, only earnest adherence to scriptural principles will keep a missionary sound in doctrine and ministry methods. And this is why I think, I believe generally speaking, independent Baptist missionaries are, are of a higher caliber, if I can put it like that. I hate the way that sounds. But because generally speaking, they take the scripture very seriously.
And I sure hope and I expect that the missionaries that we support do that. And if there are any that don't, we're not gonna support them. It's just that simple.
All right, we'll conclude there. Let's pray together.
